tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5710845602477644495.post3788878930176085257..comments2023-09-23T05:56:35.265+12:00Comments on MandM: Contra Mundum: What's Wrong with Imposing your Beliefs onto Others?MandMhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02694636663826784480noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5710845602477644495.post-60074375672989205532009-09-03T04:10:58.000+12:002009-09-03T04:10:58.000+12:00The argument goes something like this. Rational ac...The argument goes something like this. Rational activity is rule governed activity. Autonomous activity is rule governed activity where the person operates according to their own rule. A rule that binds one rational being qua rational ought to bind all rational beings (like how 2+2=4) is the same for everyone. Since people's personal inclinations tend to produce disagreement, they are out. Only rules that are based on reason alone, where the reason you act by has to count as a good reason for everyone will be binding on all rational beings.<br /><br />So, if state authority is to be based on the consent of the governed, it has to be based on something that all individuals would freely agree to as a community of rational beings. It's important that the agreement takes place under conditions of hypothetical equality, for there would be no possibility of agreement if it did not (and this is the crucial point). Rawls' way of fixing this is for each person to imagine they are creating the rules for a society in which they have no idea what position they will be, whether they are religious or atheist, man or woman, rich or poor. Rawls thinks that any rational person under such conditions would create essentially the same rules (personal liberties, civil rights, a maximin distribution of wealth). Therefore, those rules are binding on all rational beings, as they are what all rational beings would agree to. Since you are a rational being, you would agree to them as well, which is why you have no rational defense if the state does something like imprison you for a crime. <br /><br />Essentially, the Kant/Rawls view fetishizes consent. The only legitimate rules are those to which people autonomously consent. When people, like criminals, argue that they do not consent to being imprisoned, what they are doing is making one rule for themselves and another for everyone else. But such a view can never be the foundation of an agreement between persons (because no one else would agree to such a rule), so the only way in which we can have a rule governed society that operates by consent is to base it on rules that all persons would agree to (and this requires the rules to be formulated under conditions of hypothetical equality). <br /><br />I actually think this is bunk, but it is the reasoning behind all modern liberal societies.<br /><br />It's relevant to this debate, because no person in the original position would agree to anything less than religious freedom. So therefore it is impossible on these grounds to justify a state in which religious people impose their religious beliefs on others (unless those beliefs correspond to those that would be agreed upon under the original position, like "don't kill"). Religious people are, however, perfectly entitled to try to convert everyone else to their religion. They just aren't allowed to make it a requirement of law or use coercion to do it. Lnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5710845602477644495.post-1119007866319243442009-09-02T22:13:46.000+12:002009-09-02T22:13:46.000+12:00<span> How could they be, since any rational...<b><span> How could they be, since any rational person would agree to them?</span></b><br /><br />But why would someone be irrational if he/she disagrees? Isn't it just labelling game? If you disagree, you're irrational.Sidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5710845602477644495.post-3134232325210418332009-09-02T21:00:34.000+12:002009-09-02T21:00:34.000+12:00Matt. May I suggest you read Romans Chapter 14-15...Matt. May I suggest you read Romans Chapter 14-15 in some depth and reflect upon its contents.Maxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5710845602477644495.post-90141427276775629672009-09-02T16:48:34.000+12:002009-09-02T16:48:34.000+12:00This debate is confused. When people say "one...This debate is confused. When people say "one should not impose moral beliefs on others", the only way it makes sense is as the Kantian prohibition on heteronomous moral codes. Kant's claim that morality was imposed on us by virtue of rationality means that it is imposed on us as autonomous beings (beings capable of acting according to a rule) by our own rational natures. So somebody who "imposes" the prohibition on murder on another person is not really forcing it on someone else, because the other person is already subject to the prohibition on account of their own autonomous will. That's different than if I said that wearing red was to be prohibited and compelled others not to do so, for that would count as a heteronomous prohibition.<br /><br />This filters down to liberal societies via Rawls' work, since the liberal society is supposed to be something that all rational beings could agree on once they (in Kantian fashion) had eliminated their own inclinations from consideration (via the veil of ignorance). But the same agreement requires the exclusion of religious belief from the fundamental principles of a society in order to protect religious freedom (since nobody would agree to be bound by the tenets of someone else's religion. Thus, attempts to force specifically religious beliefs on to others would be a case of heteronomy (because no citizen behind the veil of ignorance could agree to it).<br /><br />Prohibitions against things like murder and religious freedom are such that (acc. to Rawls) no rational autonomous person could disagree with them, so they are not cases of heteronomy. How could they be, since any rational person would agree to them?<br /><br />Of course people are free to disagree with the contractualist account, but that is what people are implicitly appealing to when they object to the imposition of religious rules, so the error is not the one diagnosed here.Lnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5710845602477644495.post-57161707943324691662009-09-02T14:58:20.000+12:002009-09-02T14:58:20.000+12:00Mr Gronk, I agree few people would admit to holdin...Mr Gronk, I agree few people would admit to holding this belief if pushed into a logical corner. I think however many people do hold this belief on in certain contexts ( like say the abortion debate) without reflecting on its implications, when they do we get the interesting qualifications. <br /><br /><i>On the face of it, there's nothing wrong with grounding morality in religious beliefs. But it becomes quite problematic when you take that a step further and enforce the rules using the police, law courts, etc.</i><br /><br />Not necessarily, take the belief that infanticide is wrong, or theft is wrong, or that its wrong to execute a person without a trial, those are all religious beliefs and it does not seem problematic to enforce them via the courts. <br /><br /><i> If you don't think so, we agree that the a person's morality depends on the set of beliefs he has about the nature of reality, including his religious beliefs; and that demanding others act as though his beliefs are true is problematic unless they also happen to hold the same beliefs.</i><br /><br />Two things here, First, I don’t think the example you cite shows that a “person's morality depends on the set of beliefs he has about the nature of reality” rather I think the example shows that the truth of the persons beliefs depend on facts about the nature of reality and the truth or falsity of certain religious beliefs.<br /><br />Second, I don’t see how it follows from this however that its inappropriate to demand that other people act in accord with the principle unless they share the beliefs. In fact this seems to be to be false. <br /><br />Take the claim that infanticide is wrong, this claim rests on certain other claims such as that new born infants are human beings and there is a moral rule which prohibits all people from killing human beings. Now, there exist people who reject both of these claims, some people claim that moral rules which bind all people do not exist, and others hold that the infant is not a human being in the requisite sense to be covered by this rule. Does it follow that its inappropriate to have laws against infanticide? Or take the claim that rape is wrong, this claim is true only if nihilism: the contention that all moral claims are false is mistaken. Many people believe in nihilism, does it follow that we should not have laws against rape? Mattnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5710845602477644495.post-85915111457142051452009-09-02T14:16:50.000+12:002009-09-02T14:16:50.000+12:00Sid,
I see I didn't express myself clearly en...Sid,<br /><br />I see I didn't express myself clearly enough. A common problem of mine in blog comments.<br /><br />First, I didn't say I agreed with the position. Rather, I was afraid Matt's post was directed at a position very few people would admit to holding if pushed into a logical corner. Critiquing the bare and unqualified position of "It's wrong to impose moral beliefs on others" is all very well if people actually hold it, but I don't think it does us much good to look as though we're chasing after straw men.<br /><br />On the face of it, there's nothing wrong with grounding morality in religious beliefs. But it becomes quite problematic when you take that a step further and enforce the rules using the police, law courts, etc. This can be readily seen when we consider the restrictions placed on Christian belief and practice in Muslim nations. I haven't read the Koran; but let's assume for the sake of the argument that the Koran commands such restrictions wherever a Muslim government exists. Would the Koran still be wrong in this matter if Allah were the one true God? If you don't think so, we agree that the a person's morality depends on the set of beliefs he has about the nature of reality, including his religious beliefs; and that demanding others act as though his beliefs are true is problematic unless they also happen to hold the same beliefs.<br /><br />I'm not saying morality should be based on head count at all. Right is right, and wrong is wrong, irrespective of what I or anyone else happens to think at any given moment. But in a fallen world and a secular state, sometimes the best we can do is appeal to "widely held public opinion".<br /><br />Thought experiment: Joe Bloggs likes to go out and get stoned on a weekly basis. He doesn't believe in God. Would you attempt to convince him to change his behaviour, and if so, how might you go about it?Mr Gronknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5710845602477644495.post-13290487030868371412009-09-02T13:55:42.000+12:002009-09-02T13:55:42.000+12:00<span>"Christian-feminist" - LOL y...<span><i>"Christian-feminist" - LOL you've got to be kidding. It's not possible to be a Christian and a Feminist. </i>" </span><br /><br />Tell that to Kate Sheperd. I suppose people like her do not exist.<br /><br /><i><span>And yes it's easy to rant about how standing against rape and infanticide is the same as having to live day in, day out with Christian fundies basically attacking you at every turn and insisting you believe what they believe or you'll burn in Hell and bla bla bla. But it's really not about that.</span></i><br /><br />Well if I had said that standing against infanticide <i>is the same</i> living day in and day out with what you describe you might have a point. What I said was that (a) moral rules against rape and infanticide are moral rules, and (b) its appropriate to impose them on others, therefore it can't be wrong to impose ones views on others.<br /><br />As a historical point however, you should acknowledge that laws against infanticide actually came about because of Christians and Christian beliefs being imposed on others and are still today opposed by many of the worlds leading secularists, usually on grounds associated with their advocacy of abortion. So the issues may not be as far apart as you think.<br /><br /><span><i>of course you have to spend your life harrassing and attacking non-believers and people who hold beliefs other than your own. That's what being a Christian is. <br /> </i></span><br />I see you attack me for my beliefs, and claim that one should not do this, Am I supposed to respect incoherent rubbish like this just because some believer once hurt your feelings?<br /><br /><span><i>But don't try to justify it with rubbish about 'moral beliefs' be honest say that's what your religion is about. Don't be fake about your motives</i>. </span><br /><br /><span>Well even if those were my motives ( which they are not) none of that addresses my argument, which stands or falls apart from the motives of the arguer. <br /><i></i></span>Mattnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5710845602477644495.post-91133658384200731092009-09-02T13:45:12.000+12:002009-09-02T13:45:12.000+12:00<span>The problem is that those doing the im...<i><span>The problem is that those doing the imposing are firmly of the opinion that their beliefs are moral and just, those who are being imposed upon are of a different opinion.</span></i><br /><br />True, people generally advocate moral rules they think are correct. However, this seems to apply to any rule or law. Some serial killers do not believe that its wrong to rape and kill women, those who support such laws disagree. Does it follow laws against murder are unjust. Some people don't think infanticide is wrong, does it follow that laws against infanticide are unjust?Mattnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5710845602477644495.post-72410891620653354892009-09-02T07:41:20.000+12:002009-09-02T07:41:20.000+12:00The problem is that those doing the imposing are f...The problem is that those doing the imposing are firmly of the opinion that their beliefs are moral and just, those who are being imposed upon are of a different opinion.Mark.V.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5710845602477644495.post-43075631137202856442009-09-02T00:59:11.000+12:002009-09-02T00:59:11.000+12:00<span><span><span> .... like a r...<b><span><span><span> .... like a referendum say....?????</span></span></span></b><br /><br />Referendum is to vote for legislation, and for people to voice their opinion. So?<span><span><span></span></span></span>Sidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5710845602477644495.post-46905278827904233272009-09-02T00:59:11.001+12:002009-09-02T00:59:11.001+12:00<span><span><span> .... like a r...<b><span><span><span> .... like a referendum say....?????</span></span></span></b><br /><br />Referendum is to vote for legislation, and for people to voice their opinion. So?<span><span><span></span></span></span>Sidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5710845602477644495.post-13302901463990381422009-09-01T15:27:15.000+12:002009-09-01T15:27:15.000+12:00<span>In regards to "<span>any ot...<span>In regards to "<span>any other claims not widely accepted". Are you saying that morality should be based on head count? .... like a referendum say....?????<br /></span></span>Maxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5710845602477644495.post-12824127073119455302009-09-01T13:40:23.000+12:002009-09-01T13:40:23.000+12:00Mr Gronk, that's true, but the point is, when ...Mr Gronk, that's true, but the point is, when it comes to morality, in the end we appeal to some claims.What is specifically wrong about religious claims?<br /><br />In regards to "<span>any other claims not widely accepted". Are you saying that morality should be based on head count?<br /></span>Sidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5710845602477644495.post-37367808432584277922009-09-01T11:16:35.000+12:002009-09-01T11:16:35.000+12:00I think that a lot of the time, the statement made...I think that a lot of the time, the statement made is not really "it's wrong to impose your moral beliefs on others", but rather "it's wrong to impose your moral beliefs on others, where those beliefs can only be justified by appeal to religious claims (or any other claims not widely accepted)".Mr Gronknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5710845602477644495.post-87104959835194764372009-09-01T10:50:03.000+12:002009-09-01T10:50:03.000+12:00Sorry - your comments widget has changed and HTML ...Sorry - your comments widget has changed and HTML came up as plain text. Let's try again:<br />http://christianclassicalliberalist.wordpress.com/2009/09/01/response-to-whats-wrong-with-imposing-your-beliefs-onto-others/Kiwi Polemicistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5710845602477644495.post-23529242281285166832009-09-01T10:48:19.000+12:002009-09-01T10:48:19.000+12:00I've written a response to this:
Response t...I've written a response to this:<br /><br /><br /><br /><a href="http://christianclassicalliberalist.wordpress.com/2009/09/01/response-to-whats-wrong-with-imposing-your-beliefs-onto-others/" rel="nofollow">Response to "What's wrong with imposing your beliefs onto others?"</a>Kiwi Polemicistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5710845602477644495.post-29917616654313265512009-09-01T10:46:49.000+12:002009-09-01T10:46:49.000+12:00"Christian-feminist" - LOL you've go..."Christian-feminist" - LOL you've got to be kidding. It's not possible to be a Christian and a Feminist.<br /><br />And yes it's easy to rant about how standing against rape and infanticide is the same as having to live day in, day out with Christian fundies basically attacking you at every turn and insisting you believe what they believe or you'll burn in Hell and bla bla bla. But it's really not about that.<br /><br />Of course you have to spend your life harrassing and attacking non-believers and people who hold beliefs other than your own. That's what being a Christian is.<br /><br />But don't try to justify it with rubbish about 'moral beliefs' be honest say that's what your religion is about. Don't be fake about your motives.<br /><br />If you're proud to be a Christian you shouldn't have to hide anything. God knows it's everyone else who has to hide their beliefs from Christians.Guestnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5710845602477644495.post-47401155173642810102009-09-01T09:28:16.000+12:002009-09-01T09:28:16.000+12:00Nice piece. It might be useful to define the word...Nice piece. It might be useful to define the words "moral" and "impose." I loosely operationalize the term "moral" to mean "I will think better of you (or worse of you) if you do so-and-so." In that sense, "to impose my moral beliefs" could just mean "I will publicly praise (or blame) you rather than keep my thoughts to myself." Tapestry of Gracenoreply@blogger.com