Tuesday, 31 March 2009
March with MandM
This month we have had about 4,000 unique visitors and we have gained and held a United States traffic rank on Alexa of around 10% through a couple of US sites picking up our site and publishing a few of our posts. We also have a decent following developing in the UK, Canada, Australia and the Barbados.
Our most popular posts for the month, in terms of traffic and search engine terms were:
Some Thoughts on Human Embryonic Stem-cell Research
Matt unpacked and ripped apart the most pervasive popular argument utilised by the media to advance the stem cell issue. In the ensuing discussion we got onto complexities around the twinning argument and Baylor University's Alexander Pruss and Matt entered into dialogue in Marquis, Pruss and the Twinning Argument.
Baby Abandoned in Airport Rubbish Bin, Sexist Responses Underway
I highlighted the inconsistency in the approach of media and society when faced with child abandonment cases contrasting the media response when a woman puts her child in danger with the example of a man doing the same thing. This post was also published on Pro Life Blogs.
Three Strikes: Proportion and Protection
I explored the controversy and confusion that had arisen in the wake of the Attorney General's report on the Three Strikes Bill and its potential to conflict with the Human Rights Act on the grounds of disproportionality of sentence. I argued that the issue need not be confused and that it is mistaken to apply the proportionality doctrine to the Three Strikes Bill. This post has been accepted for publication in Lex, the Auckland University Student Law Journal.
The Catholic Church, Excommunication and Abortion for Child Rape
I called for rationality and non-emotivenesss to assess the controversial case of the Catholic church's moves against the mother of a 9 year old whose child was aborted following rape by her stepfather. I pointed out that despite our revulsion at the crime committed against the child, this was no justification to turn out brains off and react in a knee-jerk fashion.
An Eye for an Eye and Turning the Other Cheek
Matt explored the Lex Talionis, the part of Exodus where an eye for an eye is called for, and contrasted it with the New Testament command to turn the other cheek. In his juxtaposition he looked at David Brink's work and explained the meaning of both texts and how they worked together.
Tooley, The Euthyphro Objection and Divine Commands: Part I and Part II
Matt revisited the divine command theory of ethics, specifically looking at the Euthyphro objection and Michael Tooley's response to William Lane Craig.
St Patrick's Day: A Protestants' Musings
I examined what the appeal of St Patrick's day might be to Protestants and found that what little history can tell us of Patrick is very fascinating indeed and that as Patrick was a pre-reformation Christian missionary, 'both sides' get to claim him.
Twitter Updates on David Bain Trial?
This was actually our most read post but I listed it last because we only wrote it to register our disgust at blow by blow reporting of high profile criminal cases.
Personally it has been a good month for us. Our 16 year old daughter began University having been home educated - a bit of a moment! Both of us began/resumed tertiary study. Our 14 year old son was offered the chance to sit NCEA a year early and one of his You Tube animations was picked up by the band whose song he had animated. I continue to recover at a snail's pace despite the news that I may need more surgery - recovering at any pace is all good! We launched Thinking Matters Auckland; we have the best Alexa stats and traffic we have ever had and on April 16 we will finally be on an even Technorati playing field with every other blog we are ranked against as it will have been 6 months since we went to our own domain - March's blog rankings will be the last where we are not being measured to our full potential against everyone else. Oh, and Matt had a decent job offer-discussion-thingy, it is not stitched up but it is looking hopeful!
Belief without Proof - Tonight!
With Comment Luv from MandM
It is a little different to how you comment on most New Zealand blogs but it is worth getting used to as if you have a blog and you leave a comment your latest post will show up under your comment automatically as a live URL as an invitation for other readers to visit your site with one click rather than clicking through to your profile.
As MandM are "do follow" that link will be search engine spidered and will help to increase your page rank.
Another way of showing our appreciation of your feedback and links :-)
If you want Comment Luv, follow the link above and follow the instructions - make sure you run the video as you install it there are a couple of little steps that you will miss if you just rely on the written instructions.
Now if someone wants to send me some CSS so I can make the silver-grey background confirm to MandM's colours you will save me a horrible learning curve (I hate CSS).
In Dread Response, Misheard Lyrics and our son Christian
Christian has Aspergers Syndrome and sees things very literally which makes his interpretation of the lyrics to this song particularly funny (even though there were one or two frames where he got a parental glare - he is 14).
While In Dread Response is not the sort of music I want my teenagers listening too (gosh I sound like my parents), I can see the appeal of this song as the lyrics are kinda crazy and knowing Christian's sense of humour, I can see why he chose it to work with (he makes a lot of animations). It is nice to know the band appreciated his work enough to display it on their page.
Monday, 30 March 2009
Daniel Hannan v Gordon Brown the "Brezhnev era Apparatchik" UPDATED
Daniel Hannan is a writer and journalist and has been Conservative MEP (Member of the European Parliament) for South East England since 1999. He writes of this video footage, "Gordon Brown was in town in advance of the G20 summit. There were a couple of things I wanted to tell him on behalf of my constituents:"
Hat Tip: True Paradigm
I wonder if Daniel would like to move to Auckland, to Mt Albert to be precise, as there's a vacancy opening up there soon he'd be more than qualified for.
UPDATE: There is an interview with Daniel Hannan on Vox Popoli following the aftermath that this speech being broadcast on You Tube caused.
Blue is the New Green: National's Bag Tax UPDATE
I say token, because we all know where the money will go, into the pockets of the supermarkets; it doesn't take a genius IQ to work out who it will hit most, those who cannot afford to shell out for a sufficient supply of re-usable eco bags and, as Whaleoil points out (like Earth Hour) this is just feel good enviromentalism, it actually isn't likely to make an impact.
So why then is National allowing this rubbish into our wallets?
UPDATE: It appears they are not!
Mr Key said there was no way he was going to support a charge that was in effect a tax going into the coffers of supermarkets. “My preference is to find a voluntary and industry-led solution,” he said.”I’ve made that very clear to the minister.”
Asked whether he would preferred to have known in advance about both issues, he replied: “I think it would be more useful if I found out about things before I read about them in the newspaper.
Sounds like Nick won't be getting any new lines for a while.
Top 10 NZ Christian Blogs - February 09
Rank. [previous top 10 rank] Blog MandM (Half Done Tumeke)
- [1.] NZ Conservative 20 (10 - 30 )
- [2.] Something Should Go Here, Maybe Later 22 (13 - 31)
- [4.] The Briefing Room 30 (35 - 25)
- [3.] Keeping Stock 31.5 (28 - 35)
- [5.] MandM 32.5 (26 - 39)
- [N] Being Frank 46* (40 - ??)
- [9.] Kiwi Polemicist 56 (51 - 61)
- [7.] Samuel Dennis 59 (30 - 88)
- [N] Say Hello to my Little Friend (Beretta Blog) 73.5 (68 - 79)
- [6.] The Humanitarian Chronicle 74.5 (101 - 48)
* For blogs that only feature on one set of stats a score for the other set is estimated by factoring in the discrepancy between the two sets of stats given their different ranking methods; any blogs this effects are marked with an asterisk. We suggest that any blog not featuring on both should submit their blog to the ranking they are not currently on as it is not always possible for us to simply calculate the score that blog would have obtained.
Note: This list only includes Christian blogs that openly identify as Christian blogs on Tumeke's ranking descriptions. If you think your blog should be on the MandM top 10 NZ Christian Blogs rankings contact Tim Selwyn of Tumeke and ask him to change your blog description to include something identifiably Christian on his rankings. More here.
Sunday, 29 March 2009
Coming Events This Week
This Tuesday come to the Thinking Matters Auckland seminar:
What: Dr Matthew Flannagan speaking on Belief without Proof
When: Tuesday 31th March – 7:00pm
Where: Lecture Room 2, Laidlaw College, 80 Central Park Drive, Henderson, West Auckland
Format: Talk followed by questions, answers and discussion.
Cost: Free!
Dr Flannagan will address the objection that Christianity is irrational in the absence of proof. He will unpack this claim and offer an alternative method of looking at faith and reason demonstrating that lack of evidence does not make faith in God irrational. more...
Open to any blogger who happens to be in Auckland. more...
(Also happens to be my birthday.)
Christian Blog Rankings Report for Feb 09 – Tumeke
- The Briefing Room 25
- NZ Conservative 30
- Something Should Go Here, Maybe Later (HalfDone) 31
- Keeping Stock 35
- MandM 39
- The Humanitarian Chronicle 48
- Kiwi Polemicist 61
- Christian News New Zealand 74
- Contra Celsum 76
- Say Hello to my Little Friend (Beretta Blog) 79
Top 10 Tumeke. name of blog Tumeke rank
Of Note:
- A change in the number 1 spot - well done Ian and Andrei!
- All top 10 are well within the top 100; in fact Blessed Economist, Samuel Dennis and Star Studded Super Step all made the top 100 despite being just outside the top 10.
- Welcome to the top 10 Christian News New Zealand.
Note: This list only includes Christian blogs that openly identify as Christian blogs on Tumeke's ranking descriptions. If you think your blog should be on the MandM top 10 NZ Christian Blogs rankings contact Tim Selwyn of Tumeke and ask him to change your blog description to include something identifiably Christian on his rankings. More here.
Now that Tumeke's January stats are out we will compare them with HalfDone's and publish the overall MandM top 10 NZ Christian Blog rankings for February 09 shortly.
Saturday, 28 March 2009
The Lights are On!
Don't you just love TV3's live coverage of Earth Hour?
My 7 year old said "why are they making a TV program about how everyone has turned their electricity off? Don't they need electricity to make it? Don't people need electricity to watch it?" Then he began laughing.
The kids like having the lights on in their room, means they don't have to go to bed til 9.30pm!
How is it going at your place?
What are you Doing to Protest Earth Hour? Sign the Mr Linky UPDATED
If you are switching on tonight and joining the protest and you have written a post linking back to us then sign the Mr Linky so everyone can see what everyone else is doing!
- To participate write a blog post detailing what you are going to do to protest earth hour.
- Within your post, link to MandM so others can find the Mr Linky and participate.
- Then write your name and copy and paste the url of your specific post, not your blog's main url so visitors visiting months later can find your post. (The only exception to this is if your entire blog is about protesting Earth Hour)
That's it. MandM are do follow so your links will be spidered and at the end of the Earth Hour weekend I will convert all links so they get Technorati-fied too - so get signed up by the end of the weekend. Any links not complying with 1, 2 and 3 will be removed.
1. Anti Earth Hour | 6. Samuel Dennis |
This blog used Mister Linky's Magical Widgets
New Blog: Anti Earth Hour
"Earth Hour cynics are encouraged to submit their pictures of power-hungry activities for Earth Hour 09. Also, any articles or research you've done. If you'd like to be added to the list of supporters - just leave a comment!"
So, if you are joining the protest and switching on tonight then go and get your blog linked and your efforts added!
Friday, 27 March 2009
Protest Earth Hour
I just spotted this on the recent entries page:
The evidence for AGW is disputed. Accepting it as gospel is PC madness. I am joining the protest at www.MandM.org.nz and turning all my lights on. 6 minutes agoMake sure you have enough lightbulbs ready for tomorrow night; I love Scalia's suggestion that we break out the outdoor Christmas lights.
"Miss" Helen Clark confirmed as Head of United Nations Development Programme
Apparently the Herald didn't read the EU protocols banning the use of "sexist" titles, apparently 'Dame' and 'Lady' remain non-sexist but 'Miss' most certainly is not.
The Herald refer to Helen as "Miss Clark" three times through the article.
[UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon] has asked the UN General Assembly to confirm Miss Clark as the new UNDP administrator for a four-year term, ...I wonder what Mr Peter Davis (that's Mr Helen Clark for our overseas visitors) has to say on the matter?
Labour Leader Phil Goff said Miss Clark would do a great job in the role. ...
The UNDP's goals would fit perfectly with the values Miss Clark had promoted throughout her political career, Mr Goff said. ... [Emphasis added]
Personally I tend to use 'Mrs' or 'Ms,' if a media outlet referred to me as Miss I would take issue; not becuase I think that women potentially having 3 titles available to them versus men having 1 is necessarily sexist (I think it depends on who is using the title and how they mean it; forcing them to call all women 'Ms' isn't going to stop someone's sexist mindset) but because at age 35 [not 36 for 6 more days] I am kinda too old to be called "Miss" and of the three options available it is the least accurate.
Thursday, 26 March 2009
MandM Now "Do Follow"
We turned off "no follow" by going to layout, editing our html, expanding widgets and deleting rel='nofollow' when it appeared in relation to comments and to backlinks (for us it only showed up twice) and then saving.
Note to Spammers: You are not welcome, you will be deleted.
One Year on and another Setback
The resulting injuries I was left with have seen me have two discs replaced with artificial ones in my neck, my participation in competitive sport is over and I live with chronic pain and severe limitations to normal life.
I had hoped that surgery and the physio rehab program would see me recover sufficiently to resume work full-time but I did not recover at the expected rate so I lost my job. The explanation had been until now that the failure to recover was probably due to the length of time and amount of pressure key nerves were put under as I waited for a diagnosis and surgery, nerves do not have much of a blood supply so they take a long time to bounce back; however, my surgeon has just informed me that my latest x-ray shows that one of the new discs is not sitting quite where it should be.
At this point he wants to review me with another x-ray in 6 weeks. What precisely he is hoping will change in 6 weeks, I am not sure, but it sounds like more surgery could be on the cards.
The amount of compensation ACC will make available for me to make up for the fact I cannot, under New Zealand law, sue the woman who did this to me looks set to be less than $4,000 NZD - I am sure the leftys who want to keep accident compensation in the hands of the state think this will make me "wealthy" and I should be more than happy.
Wednesday, 25 March 2009
Tooley, The Euthyphro Objection and Divine Commands: Part II
In the second half of the post I criticised Walter Sinnott-Armstrong’s claim;
Moreover, even if God in fact never would or could command us to rape, the divine command theory still implies the counter-factual that, if God did command us to rape, then we would have a moral obligation to rape. That is absurd.[1] [Emphasis added]As I noted, Armstrong’s suggestion that the conditional is obviously false is far from obvious and in fact, runs contrary to the standard view of such conditionals in modal logic.
In this post, I want to examine a defence of Armstrong’s position, that proposed by Louise Anthony in her article “Atheism as Perfect Piety.” I will argue Anthony’s defence also fails. I will then offer some reasons for thinking that the conditional Tooley cites is not false but true.
Louise Anthony’s Defence of Armstrong’s Argument
Louise Anthony suggests a repair to Armstrong’s argument. She notes,
In standard modal logics, any counterfactual with an impossible antecedent is true. … Results like this are widely regarded as regrettable, in so far as one looks to formal modal logic to reconstruct ordinary reasoning with counterfactuals. I am going with ordinary intuitions, which do not treat all counterfactuals with impossible antecedents as true. [2]Anthony, here, claims that the standard view of modal logic is mistaken. Not all counterfactuals with impossible antecedents are true. An obvious problem here is that even if this is the case, it does not follow that the particular counterfactual being discussed here is false. The fact that some counterfactuals with impossible antecedents are false does not entail that this particular one is false.
Suppose, however, one puts this argument to one side and grants that the counterfactual is false. What follows? I am inclined to think not much.
Consider the structure of Anthony’s argument. She notes that the claim that right and wrong is coextensive with divine commands entails that if, per impossible, God commands torturing people as much as possible then it is obligatory to do so. The problem is that an analogous line of reasoning applies to any ethical theory. Three examples will demonstrate this.
First, consider utilitarianism, the theory that an action is obligatory if it maximises the balance of good consequences over bad consequences. It follows from this that if torturing people as much as possible maximises good consequences over bad then torturing people as much as possible is obligatory. The utilitarian’s protestation that such a situation is impossible is unsuccessful because even if this situation is impossible the conditional is, according to Anthony, still absurd and hence, discredits the theory.
Similar things apply with Kantianism, the view that an action is obligatory if and only if it treats rational creatures with respect; that is, treats them always as ends and never merely as means. It follows that if torturing people as much as possible treats them with respect then it is obligatory to torture people as much as possible. Of course, the Kantian would object that torturing people as much as possible is never something that constitutes respect but again, that does not matter. Even if the antecedent is impossible, Anthony maintains that the conditional is false and for this reason the theory should be rejected.
The same is true with virtue ethics, the view that an action is obligatory if and only if, it would be performed by a virtuous person. It follows that if a virtuous person would torture people as much as possible then torturing people as much as possible is obligatory. Again, the virtue ethicist will protest that a virtuous person would never want to do that but again, if Anthony is correct, this is irrelevant. Her whole point is that even if the antecedent is impossible, an ethical theory with this implication is absurd.
I maintain the same is true of any meta-ethical theory. Let P be any property one considers to be logically equivalent to the property of being obligatory. It will be true that this meta-ethical theory entails that if P is possessed by the action of torturing one another as much as possible then torturing other people as much as possible will be obligatory.
Anthony’s argument is essentially that if we postulate logically impossible situations, absurd and false implications follow. Questions about what God would do in impossible situations is, as Craig points out, “is like wondering whether, if there were a round square, its area would equal the square of one of its sides. And what would it matter how one answered, since what is imagined is logically incoherent?”[3]
Reasons for Thinking that the Conditional is True
I have argued that attempts to show that the conditional, if God had commanded mankind to torture one another as much as possible then it would be obligatory to torture one another as much as possible, is false all fail. I am inclined to go one step further and maintain not just that there is no reason for thinking that the conditional is false but that it is, on reflection, obviously true.
The conditional states that torturing one another as much as possible is obligatory, in a particular situation; that is, a situation where a perfectly good omniscient being commands it. Now it seems inconceivable to me that any action, torture included, could be wrong under such circumstances. If torturing one another as much as possible is gratuitously evil and could never be obligatory then an informed perfectly good being would not command it. On the other hand, if torturing one another as much as possible had certain features that would lead a perfectly good being to overlook the evils the action contains and commend it then it would seem that torturing people in these circumstances would not be wrong. The reason we are inclined to take the counterfactual as absurd is because we think it is absurd that a perfectly good being would command anything of the sort.
[1] Walter Sinnott-Armstrong “Why Traditional Theism Cannot Provide an Adequate Foundation for Morality” in Is Goodness without God Good Enough: A Debate on Faith, Secularism and Ethics Eds. Robert K Garcia and Nathan L King (Lanham: Rowan & Littlefield Publishers, 2008) 106.
[2] Louise Anthony “Atheism as Perfect Piety” in Is Goodness without God Good Enough: A Debate on Faith, Secularism and Ethics, Eds. Robert K Garcia and Nathan L King (Lanham: Rowan & Littlefield Publishers, 2008) 82.
[3] William Lane Craig “This Most Gruesome of Guests” in Is Goodness without God Good Enough: A Debate on Faith, Secularism and Ethics Eds. Robert K Garcia and Nathan L King (Lanham: Rowan & Littlefield Publishers, 2008) 172.
RELATED POSTS:
Tooley, The Euthyphro Objection and Divine Commands: Part I
The Euthyphro Dilemma Against Divine Commands I: Avoiding Strawmen
The Euthyphro Objection II: Arbitrariness
Euthyphro Objection III:The Redundancy of God is Good
On the Meta-Euthyphro Objection
Brink on Dialetical Equilibrium
On a Common Equivocation
Patrick Nowell Smith on Divine Commands
Permissible Lies
Theology, Morality and Reason
The Meta-Ethical Argument for Christian Theism: A Response to Richard Chappell
Walter Sinnott-Armstrong, William Lane Craig and the Argument from Harm Part I
Tuesday, 24 March 2009
Win a Car and Speak Your Thoughts about the Human Impact on Global Warming
Sound to good to be true?
But wait, there is more!
If you go here and enter the draw to win a brand new Toyota Prius, it will cost you the totally affordable price of $0. That's right folks, it's totally free!
You get a platform to express your views, the knowledge that hundreds of people will read them, the chance to drive away in a brand new black - I mean, can you get a cooler colour? Toyota Prius and it costs you no more than the few seconds it takes to write a trite soundbite.
[Ok, well, for Matt and other Philosophers it might take several hours to research the philosophy around bogus global warming science and formulate an argument that satisfies modus pollens but you get my point]
But if you click now, you also get this limited edition offer to participate in MandM earth hour. At 8.30pm, on the 28th of March 2009, turn on every light in your house for one hour to protest at the rubbish you are being fed by the politicians and those calling themselves scientists and historians who are either lying to the public or are incompetent if they think that the fact we have just come off the little ice age is anything new.
Hat Tips: RoarPrawn & No Minister
Monday, 23 March 2009
Tooley, The Euthyphro Objection and Divine Commands: Part I
There is a theory which has the consequence that there cannot be objective moral laws unless God exists---that's the so-called 'divine command theory of morality'. What it says is that an action is wrong because and only because God forbids it. And an action is obligatory because and only because God demands it. If that theory were right, then there would be an argument in support of the claim that Dr. Craig has advanced. But that theory is quite a hopeless theory because of its implications. One of its implications, for example, is that if God had commanded mankind to torture one another as much as possible, then it would follow that that action was obligatory. Perhaps Dr. Craig would be happy with that consequence. But many people, including many religious thinkers, are very unhappy with that consequence, and so have rejected the divine command theory of morality.[1]Tooley here appeals to a version of the Euthyphro dilemma; his argument contains two premises.
First, that a divine command theory has a certain implication; it implies the following conditional, if God had commanded mankind to torture one another as much as possible then it would be obligatory to torture one another as much as possible.
Second, Tooley thinks many people would be unhappy with this implication. Now I think Tooley is correct that the aforementioned conditional is an implication of the divine command theory. His phrasing of the second premise, however, is problematic; his stated reason is that many people are not happy with this implication but it is unclear why this is an objection. The fact that some people do not like an implication is hardly an objection against it. What is relevant is whether the conditional is true. For this reason, I take it Tooley is engaging in a rhetorical flourish and actually contends that this conditional is false.
The crucial contention of Tooley’s critique, then, is that the conditional, if God had commanded mankind to torture one another as much as possible then it would be obligatory to torture one another as much as possible,is false. There are some problems with this contention. There are no reasons for thinking the conditional is false and there are good reasons for thinking the conditional is true. In the next two blogs I will defend these claims.
Reasons for Thinking the Conditional is False
The crucial contention of Tooley’s critique then is that the conditional if God had commanded mankind to torture one another as much as possible then it would be obligatory to torture one another as much as possible, is false.
Unfortunately Tooley provides no argument for this conclusion, he simply asserts it. An examination of the literature suggests that typically two lines of argument are offered for this contention. Given Tooley offers no new reasons of his own, I will assume that he has one of these in mind.
David Brink’s Argument against the Conditional
The first is mentioned by Robert K. Garcia and Nathan L. King
DCT [divine command theory] implies that it is possible for any kind of action, such as rape, to not be wrong. But it seems intuitively impossible for rape not to be wrong. So, DCT is at odds with our commonsense intuitions about rape.[2]A similar line of argument is made by David Brink who states,
We might also notice a counter intuitive implication of voluntarism. Voluntarism implies that all moral truths are contingent on what God happens to approve. … Thus, for example, had God had not condemned genocide and rape, these things would not have been wrong, or, if God were to approve these things they would become morally acceptable. But these are awkward commitments, inasmuch as this sort of conduct seems necessarily wrong.[3]Brink here uses the examples of genocide and rape; however, I suggest that he would say the same thing about Tooley’s example of ‘commanding people to torture each other;’ hence, for clarity I will stick with Tooley’s example.
Brink’s inference here has two premises; the first [1] is that the conditional, if God had commanded mankind to torture one another as much as possible then it would be obligatory to torture one another as much as possible, implies that it is possible for the act of ‘torturing people as much as possible’ to be obligatory. The second premise [2] is that it is impossible for the act of ‘torturing people as much as possible’ to be obligatory; such things are necessarily wrong, that is, wrong in all logically possible worlds. If [1] and [2] hold, the conditional Tooley refers to is false.
The problem with this inference is that [1] is false. The conditional uses the term “if”, if God had … but this does not by itself imply that there is a logically possible world where such an action is obligatory. To get this conclusion one needs the additional premise that there exists a possible world where God issues such a command. Brink does not offer any reason for thinking this is the case; he seems simply to take it for granted.
It seems dubious, however, that this assumption is true. Tooley defines God as “omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect”.[4][Emphasis added] Similarly, in his debate with Craig he states,
I want to begin by briefly indicating how I'm going to understand the term 'God' in this next discussion. My view is that the question one should ask is, "What characteristics should an object possess in order to be an appropriate object of religious attitudes?"So, as Tooley defines his terms, the claim that there is a possible world where God commands people to ‘torture one another as much as possible’ is true only if there is a possible world where a morally perfect omniscient person would command this action.
I think that the answer to that is that a being, to be characterizable as God in that sense, should be a personal being, should be a being that is morally perfect, a being that is omnipotent, and a being that is omniscient..[5][Emphasis added]
This is unlikely. The very reason Tooley cites the example, of ‘torturing others as much as possible,’ is because he views it as a paradigm of an action which can never be obligatory. Similarly, Brink mentions actions like rape and genocide because he thinks it’s impossible that such actions could be permissible. However, if this is the case then a morally perfect being would never command such actions. The argument by Brink, therefore, is unsound.
Walter Sinnott-Armstrong’s Argument
Walter Sinnott-Armstrong suggests a second line of argument for the falsity of the conditional, if God had commanded mankind to torture one another as much as possible then it would be obligatory to torture one another as much as possible. Armstrong states,
Moreover, even if God in fact never would or could command us to rape, the divine command theory still implies the counter-factual that, if God did command us to rape, then we would have a moral obligation to rape. That is absurd.[6] [Emphasis added]Armstrong uses the example of rape in place of Tooley’s ‘torturing one another as much as possible’. He claims that “even if God in fact never would or could command” such actions, the relevant counterfactual still follows and “that is absurd.”
Armstrong gives no argument for the claim that the counterfactual is absurd, he simply asserts it as obvious. The problem is that it is not obvious. If there is no logically possible world where God issues such a command (and Armstrong concedes for the sake of argument that this is the case) then the conditional (which Armstrong refers to as the counterfactual) has a logically impossible antecedent; it is equivalent to statements like “if there were a round square, its area would equal the square of one of its sides.”[7] Whether statements like this are true or false is a difficult issue in contemporary modal logic. In fact, according to the standard view of modal logic, a conditional with a logically impossible antecedent is always true.
Armstrong’s suggestion, then, that the conditional is obviously true is far from obvious and in fact, runs contrary to the standard view of such conditionals in modal logic.
In my next post I will look at attempts to overcome this.
[1] Michael Tooley and William Lane Craig A Classic Debate on the Existence of God held at the University of Colorado at Boulder, November 1994, transcript available at http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5307#section_3 accessed on March 21st 2009.
[2] Robert K. Garcia and Nathan L. King “Introduction” in Is Goodness without God Good Enough: A Debate on Faith, Secularism and Ethics, Eds. Robert K Garcia and Nathan L King (Lanham: Rowan & Littlefield Publishers, 2008) 11.
[3] David O Brink “The Autonomy of Ethics” The Cambridge Companion to Atheism ed Michael Martin (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2007) 152.
[4] Michael Tooley “Does God Exist,” in Knowledge of God Ed. Alvin Plantinga & Michael Tooley (Malden, MA: Blackwell Publishing Ltd, 2008) 72.
[5] Tooley and Craig A Classic Debate on the Existence of God.
[6] Walter Sinnott-Armstrong “Why Traditional Theism Cannot Provide an Adequate Foundation for Morality” in Is Goodness without God Good Enough: A Debate on Faith, Secularism and Ethics Eds. Robert K Garcia and Nathan L King (Lanham: Rowan & Littlefield Publishers, 2008) 106.
[7] William Lane Craig “This Most Gruesome of Guests” in Is Goodness without God Good Enough: A Debate on Faith, Secularism and Ethics, Eds. Robert K Garcia and Nathan L King (Lanham: Rowan & Littlefield Publishers, 2008), 172
RELATED POSTS:
Tooley, The Euthyphro Objection and Divine Commands: Part II
The Euthyphro Dilemma Against Divine Commands I: Avoiding Strawmen
The Euthyphro Objection II: Arbitrariness
Euthyphro Objection III:The Redundancy of God is Good
On the Meta-Euthyphro Objection
Brink on Dialetical Equilibrium
On a Common Equivocation
Patrick Nowell Smith on Divine Commands
Permissible Lies
Theology, Morality and Reason
The Meta-Ethical Argument for Christian Theism: A Response to Richard Chappell
Walter Sinnott-Armstrong, William Lane Craig and the Argument from Harm Part I
Blackout Victory: s92a Scrapped
If you recall its implementation was to be "delayed a month while ISPs and copyright holders continued efforts to work out a voluntary agreement on how it would be enforced ... if they could not agree, the clause would be suspended." I predicted then that "in other words, as written, it's dead."
TelstraClear bailed from the talks, making it pretty clear that not only was it not the job of ISP's to be judge and jury, so also was it not their jobs to fix badly drafted legislation. Given how pear shaped things had become, today's announcement from Prime Minister John Key that that the government would be redrafting the section was not surprising.
Awesome victory for the blogosphere whose blackout campaign placed considerable pressure on the government to act.
Marquis, Pruss and the Twinning Argument
And therefore the following question may be very carefully inquired into and discussed by learned men, though I do not know whether it is in man's power to resolve it: At what time the infant begins to live in the womb: whether life exists in a latent form before it manifests itself in the motions of the living being.I think Augustine’s comments ring true today. Like Augustine I believe there is good reason for thinking a fetus (a formed conceptus) is a human being and like Augustine I oppose destroying the conceptus at any stage in pregnancy. I am also inclined to agree with Augustine that prior to formation, the best stance to adopt is agnosticism if we do not know when the human being begins to exist; I have argued for this elsewhere.
Augustine of Hippo, The Enchiridion, 85.
Madeleine asked Alexander Pruss to either help her understand or overcome an argument advanced by Don Marquis that had given rise to my agnosticism regarding the point at which a human being comes into existence (human being is defined as an organism, the killing of which constitutes homicide).
My agnosticism is based on three things. The first is that I know of no reason for thinking an embryo is a human being at the time of conception. The second is that two arguments against this conclusion lead me to wonder if we can know this. The first is the twinning argument. The second is Don Marquis recent track-forward argument.
Pruss, in his post, only addresses the twinning argument. Having read Pruss’s argument I think that he and I are in fundamental agreement; moreover, I think he provides reasons for accepting an agnostic position, at least with regard to identical twins.
First, a brief summary of the twinning argument is necessary to give my readers some clarity as to what we are talking about.
Prior to the time when an embryo receives a primitive streak, the group of cells which indicate the basic body plan of the embryo, an embryo can twin. Occasionally monozygotic twinning occurs and a single embryo splits to form two or more separate embryos. Many Theologians and Philosophers have argued that this fact provides strong evidence that human beings do not come into existence prior to 14 days post conception.
The argument goes as follows. Suppose a human being comes into existence at conception, let’s call this embryo Bob. Bob symmetrically splits into two forming two embryos, embryo A and embryo B. The question arises, what happened to Bob?
There are only four possibilities.
(a) Bob ceased to exist and two new individual human beings come into existence at twinning;The objector argues that each of these options is acceptable.
(b) Bob continued as embryo A and embryo B came into existence at twinning;
(c) Bob continues as embryo B and embryo A came into existence at twinning;
(d) Bob is identical with both embryo A and embryo B.
Pruss gives two main responses to this argument. The first is to deny that all of the options (a) (b) (c) and (d) are all unacceptable. The second is to call into question whether symmetric twinning actually occurs.
Are (a) (b) (c) and (d) all Unacceptable Options?
Pruss does not argue for the acceptability of (d) and for good reason, (d) leads to a straightforward contradiction due to the transitivity of identity. According to the transitivity of identity, if an object x is identical to another object y and y is identical to x then x is identical z.
In (d) embryo A is identical with Bob, Bob is also identical with embryo B, hence by transitivity of identity, Embryo A should be the same organism as embryo B but clearly is not; as I noted, two separate embryos came into existence at twinning and two separate organisms cannot be the same organism.
As I stated, Pruss does not address this but he does defends the possibility of (a) (b) and (c).
Let’s turn first to (a); Pruss here suggests that this option is “not absurd” and gives an example of an amoeba; Pruss notes that when an amoeba splits into two we normally think the original one is destroyed and two new ones come into existence. So when the conceptus twins, the original one is destroyed and two new organisms come into existence.
Jeff McMahan and Peter Singer have offered a response to this line of argument. McMahan suggests adopting (a) “is an embarrassment” for anyone who opposes abortion on the grounds that life begins at conception because they are committed to the claim that “it’s a terrible loss when one of us dies in utero;” hence, anyone who thinks hominisation (the coming into existence of a human being) occurs at conception is committed to viewing monozygotic twinning as bad and as tragic as the death of a newborn infant due to the demise of the original conceptus.
Now I am not convinced by this line of reasoning entirely; if a newborn split into two and two new, genetically identical, infants were formed, it is not clear to me that we would consider this occurrence tragic, our attitudes to infants notwithstanding.
Similarly, with Pruss’ brain splitting example, I don’t think that if we conducted a brain splitting operation on a human being and placed the two hemispheres of the brain into two genetically identical bodies we would not consider this to be on par with homicide, despite the fact that we admit that an adult human is human.
Now, if cases like this happened we would be genuinely perplexed as these cases are extremely strange and bizarre, if they could happen we would end up with two beings that do not differ, either psychologically or physiologically, from the being of origin. So I agree with Pruss that this situation is possible and is not clearly or obviously unacceptable.
However, I find it interesting that while Pruss defends this option as acceptable he backs away from endorsing it; he states that “if x in fact is going to symmetrically split in the near future, then maybe x is not identical with any far-future entity”[Emphasis added] he then refers the reader to his discussion of the other two cases. I think he is correct to do this; to show that an option is not false is not to show there are any reasons for thinking it is true.
Turning now to (b) and (c); the standard argument against adopting either claim is that to do so is arbitrary, one cannot provide any reason for identifying Bob with embryo A that is not also a reason for identifying Bob with embryo B. Pruss response is to argue
There might be some law specifying which of y and z gets x's soul, either in terms of some minor asymmetry (nobody thinks the asymmetry is total, with each half having the exact same number of molecules, in exactly the same positions) or stochastically (maybe it's random where the soul goes), with the other output entity getting a new soul. Or it might be that God decides where x's soul goes.Now on the face of it this does not appear to address the objection; the objector argues that one can never be rational in affirming that (b) is the case without also affirming (c). Pruss provides no reason for saying you can. His position is simply that either option remains possible.
I think something important can be ascertained from Pruss’ objection here and that is that the objector does not show; that either (b) or (c) are false. At best one can only show that that we cannot affirm either option nor can we deny either option has occurred. What the objector tells us here is that we cannot know at this stage.
It we look at Pruss’ response then it seems what he tells us is that when we ask the question regarding a set of monozygotic twins, did they come into existence at conception? we do not know. It is possible they did not both come into existence when twinning occurred and it is possible that one of the two began at conception though we do not know whether this is the case and even if we did, we don’t know which one of the two was prior.
Does Symmetric Twinning Occur?
Similar conclusions apply to the other main argument Pruss provides against the twinning argument. He writes,
last time I checked, we did not actually know that embryonic splitting is in fact symmetric. If it turns out that embryonic splitting proceeds by budding, the argument falls flat. Thus, the argument rests on an empirical hypothesis which is merely speculative. This is a problem: obviously, if the case for the lack of a right to life on the part of some organism is based on a merely speculative hypothesis, we should treat the organism as if it had a right to life until that speculative hypothesis is checked.Here Pruss argues that we do not know whether symmetrical twinning actually occurs and he argues that in the absence of any reason for denying that an embryo is human we should treat it as though it is. Now I don’t deny the first premise, all it does is again point out that when we are dealing with monozgotic twins, we do not know whether either or both came into existence at conception, as we do not know whether twinning is symmetric, where the above puzzles arise, or asymmetric, whereas Pruss argues they do not.
Pruss goes on to argue that when we don’t know we should treat the embryo as though it has a right to life. While I do not endorse this claim as it is phrased, I argued for a similar claim in my post; I argued that in cases where we do not know if an embryo is a human being it would be reckless and hence, gravely wrong to kill it because it might be.
So in conclusion, I think that the twinning argument should give us pause about claiming that human beings come into existence at conception. We do not know whether twinning is symmetric or asymmetric. If it is the latter, we do not know whether anyone who is a monozygotic twin came into existence or conception or not. Either option is a possibility but we do not have the information to know which is option is correct.
RELATED POSTS:
Some Thoughts on Human Embryonic Stem-cell Research
Is Abortion Liberal? Part 1
Is Abortion Liberal? Part 2
Sentience Part 1
Sentience Part 2
Viability
Abortion and Brain Death: A Response to Farrar
Abortion and Capital Punishment: No Contradiction
Imposing You Beliefs Onto Others: A Defence
Published: Boonin's Defense of the Sentience Criteria - A Critique
Published: Abortion and Capital Punishment - No Contradiction
Sunday, 22 March 2009
South Park on Human Embryonic Stem Cell Research
[There are two, fast loading, clips below; they are linked so that both will autoplay]
Hat Tip: Say Hello to my Little Friend: The Beretta Blog and Podcast from Glenn's blog "Yay for stem cell research. But why bring Embryos into it?"
Saturday, 21 March 2009
"Tweet This" for Blogger with no Log In and Shortened URL!
I had looked all over and tried several options but they either required tweeters to log in even if they were already logged in or they did not include any text or they were not blog entry specific or they had vague instructions like "put this code where you want it to show up" or they failed to shorten the URL and came up too long or they plain just didn't work.
Blogger Buster to the rescue - Amanda has just released her version and like all her add-ons it was simple, easy to follow, practical and worked! If you are already logged in it goes straight to your Twitter home page, it comes up with a shortened URL, a recommendation/explanation and the title of the blog entry you are wanting to tweet.
The only thing I changed was where she had "I'm reading: " I extended it to read "I'm reading MandM's:" and I changed where she suggested it should sit (style preference) and I added a space after "Tweet This! " in the last line of the code.
Friday, 20 March 2009
Alexander Pruss on Marquis's Transitivity of Identity Argument
Matt is agnostic as to whether moral status is acquired at conception but argues that unless there are good reasons for thinking the pre-segmentation embryo does not have human moral status, it is seriously immoral to destroy it. Agnosticism like Matt's is not a good enough reason, so Matt opposes the destruction of embryo's from conception despite not being convinced such entities possess human moral status.
I intuitively felt the argument was flawed but could not articulate why or how which was frustrating - lack of philosophical training really bugs me at times. Baylor University's Alexander Pruss has very kindly written a rebuttal of Marquis's argument after I asked him to help me to either understand the force of Don Marquis' continual identity problem or give me an argument to overcome it.
Matt plans to look at it in detail this weekend but for those of you following the discussion on the matter back in the original thread it originated in I thought you might like to look at it too. I think Pruss' argument is very good and it encapsulates the threads of the objection I had towards it in my own mind but lacked the ability to formulate clearly.
Baby Abandoned in Airport Rubbish Bin, Sexist Responses Already Underway
Well, I suggest you check out the news because such views are apparently alive and well in New Zealand. To see my point let me put down two not-so-hypothetical cases.
A man abandoned his three year old daughter in an Australian train station, he clearly was distressed yet immediately there was outrage at the fact that a father would abandon his child in this manner.
(Of course, later we discover that Nai Yun Xue murdered his wife and was on the run in the US but the outrage that was poured out and expressed in the media regarding the fact of abandonment preceded this knowledge.)
Now turn to a second case, a woman abandoned her baby in an airport in New Zealand. Again, we do not yet know all the details, all we know is that the woman appeared distressed.
Unlike the man who abandoned the child in a public place, where others would likely notice her, this woman dumped her baby in a rubbish bin, where people are unlikely to see her, where in fact she very possible could have died.
What’s the response in the second case? Sympathy, empathy, understanding, discussion over women's hormones, speculation into culture and her family situation. We are already being prepped to swallow that the woman is not really culpable for the action, we are told heart tugging stories about how they were reunited all peppered with terms like "its all very sad" - very different from the angry, absolute, terminology aimed at Nai Yun Xue.
What’s the difference? I cannot see any.
As far as I can tell in the first case the abandoner was a man and the second it was a woman and women have emotions that effect their judgement and culpability.
As a person who has researched the abortion issue extensively I have noted that what passes for sexism and misogyny is frequently embraced and even promoted by certain quarters to promote the ideals of those who claim to be favour of women. They will condemn statements like the above quote in popular theological writings of the past as patronising and insulting yet when there are benefits to women from being treated as full rational agents they seem quite willing to buy into this line of thought as long as it enables women to avoid criticism.
The problem is you cannot have it both ways. Accepting that women, like men, are rational moral agents means that not only do they have rights but that women can intelligibly be said to have duties. Possession of moral agency means that one’s actions can be subject to moral criticism, that one can be held culpable for ones misdeeds.
If women are moral agents then we can ask if they have duties to their offspring. We can ask if a woman, even if she is suffering emotional stress, is required to provide for the children she brought into existence. Asking these questions and holding women to the same standards as men, far from being degrading to women, actually respects them as moral agents.
But of course admitting this means that feminists are forced to face another question. It means that if a fetus is a human being then a woman may have a responsibility to not kill it. One cannot, as is common in moral literature, simply dismiss any criticisms of women as sexist nor can one appeal simply to the emotional plight of women who have abortions; one needs to actually ask serious moral questions.
This is a question that is too hard for some feminists to fathom; hence, they would rather buy into the very misogynist trends they condemn in traditional theology and treat women as emotional, irrational, beings who are incapable of moral choices rather than allow people to question the political stances they have advocated in the name of women.
Auckland Bloggers Bash
The next B3 will be on 2nd of April (my birthday!) from 6.30pm onwards at Galbraiths, 2 Mt Eden Road, Mt Eden, Auckland.
Thursday, 19 March 2009
A Bill to Amend the Anti-Smacking Law
While we do not buy into the notion that this law should be changed because the majority want it to be (the majority agreeing with or wanting something is not, in and of itself, a good enough reason to change the law as the fact a majority support a policy does not entail that the policy is just or right; the majority can and often are mistaken) nevertheless, we do share Family First's concerns "that parents are hugely confused over the legal effect of the law." We also agree that "parents have a right to know whether they are parenting within the law or not."
The law has been made confusing by virtue of the political football this issue has become; so much disagreement as to how it applies makes relying on any one opinion risky, it doesn't help that the law is drafted like a dogs breakfast either. These factors mean that people are unable to find out what the law actually means; hence, it becomes impossible for them to alter their behaviour to comply with the law.
This is an unjust situation that needs rectification. Criminal laws threaten people with loss of property, liberty and parental rights if they are not complied with further they set public expectations of behaviour. To be told you must conduct yourself in terms of X or else and then not be told clearly and unequivocally what X is is unjust.
But there is another issue which struck me yesterday; the law actually effects third parties.
Earlier this week I was at a supermarket and I observed a woman shopping with two children. One of whom, a pre-schooler, was going out of his way to play up. I heard them coming around the aisle before I saw them as he was being loud and argumentative demanding to go home immediately and was repeatedly trying to run off. He had a big grin on his face as he loudly taunted his mum and sibling and kept wriggling to get away from his mother who was holding his hand and pushing the grocery laden trolley, with a baby in the front, with the other hand (and struggling with both tasks).
The little boy twisted his hand out of his mother's grasp and ran away from her laughing. She called him to come back, he yelled no, then grinned and laughed, clearly taking delight in her frustration as she said it again and he kept running.
She had to give chase with the laden trolley and baby as he ran between two big freestanding displays. I ducked around one end in an attempt to head him off, as I knew only too well the place she was in having parented a supermarket runner of my own, but he was too quick for me.
In the end she ran after him and I watched her baby and trolley. The whole time he was defying her requests to stop and come back and gleefully enjoying misbehaving. When she caught him she said "I told you to not run off, I asked you to come back, we have talked about this before, your behaviour is not ok" and she gave him an open handed smack right in front of me. She then finished her groceries in peace.
The point of this story is not to make some claim that smacking is ok because it worked in this instance; such an argument is flawed for at least two reasons, first it suggests that the only relevant issue in assessing the morality of a punishment is its effectiveness, and secondly it makes a claim about a class of actions on the basis of one observed instance. I shared this story as I want to share my reaction to seeing her smack her child.
The minute I saw her do it I knew she was breaking the law. According to the law she was engaging in assault against her child and in the absence of a defence she was legally a child abuser. Normally, when I witness someone breaking the law I feel duty bound to inform the appropriate authority; particularly if I witness assault or child abuse. However, I felt conflicted.
I knew I was not witnessing child abuse, yet (assuming the claims about the law are correct which is a big assumption) I was not the police so it was not my place to use discretion. Further, I have strong, reasonably held objections to the law. So I chose to not report her, instead I chose to put myself in the position of failing in my civic duty to report a violation of the law.
My point is that the law not only made the mother in this situation a child abuser but that all of us who fail to report it are like those people who know of and witness domestic violence and refuse to report it. The principles that I hold regarding my duty to report law breaking that I witness have been violated and are no longer clear despite my being certain I did the right thing.
I look forward to reading the Bill and I congratulate Family First for keeping this issue current and John Boscawen for doing what National has not.
Hone's Inconsistency
This is the same Member of Parliament who voted to criminalise parents for giving their kids a light smack who now wants adults who (allegedly) lightly assaulted the Prime Minister to not face criminal prosecution.
One rule for citizens, one rule for relatives of MP's.
Wednesday, 18 March 2009
Dr Matthew Flannagan on Belief without Proof
What: Dr Matthew Flannagan speaking on Belief without Proof
When: Tuesday 31th March – 7:00pm
Where: Lecture Room 2, Laidlaw College, 80 Central Park Drive, Henderson, West Auckland
Format: Talk followed by questions, answers and discussion.
Cost: Free!
Dr Flannagan holds a PhD in Theology, a Masters degree in Philosophy. His area of expertise is the interface between Philosophy and Theology, Applied Ethics and Worldviews. He is an adjunct lecturer in Philosophy for Laidlaw College, writes for the MandM blog and has nearly 15 years experience engaging and challenging secular culture both in New Zealand and internationally.
He has formally debated the Abortion Law Reform Association of New Zealand’s Dr Zoe During and the New Zealand Association of Rationalist Humanist’s Dr Bill Cooke; he has been published in several international journals of philosophy and has a personal reference from the then President of the Evangelical Theological Society in his resume.
Mark it in your calendar now, advertise it on your blog, tweet it and tell your friends!
Any Requests?
And the 12th Most Popular Blog in New Zealand is.....
Tuesday, 17 March 2009
St Patrick's Day: A Protestants' Musings
Now one wonders why so many people who are not Catholic or Irish feel the need to celebrate a "saint". Some might say the cause for celebration is the excuse to consume Guiness, any excuse to drink... but the green? Who looks good in green and who wants to drink green food colouring?
I thought it would be interesting to look into Patrick and see if there is something there beyond the green guiness, the saint commemoration that protestants might find interesting.
It was difficult to find anything concrete about the man, obviously the internet didn't quite go back that far so I couldn't just go and read his blog. Apparently historians haven't fared much better as centuries of legend make sifting through the facts confusing and only two documents appear to have survived, a confession he wrote and a letter of excommunication he wrote to Coroticus.
What does survive when one sifts through the legend and the documents is interesting.
Patrick lived around 400 AD and when he was 16 he was kidnapped by Celts and taken to Ireland where he spent 6 years before escaping and returning to his family.
At some point Patrick trained in the Church and then returned to Ireland as a missionary though apparently no one can associate him with any particular parish. Many accounts speak of his evangelistic approach as being that of an equal, someone who just got alongside his countrymen, rather than holding himself out as someone holding a special place in the church. It also seems apparent that he adopted Paul's tactic of using the culture around him in his promotion of Christianity.
Some credit him with lighting the Paschal Fire at Knowth to bring Celtic culture's emphasis of fire together with celebrations for Easter; It is said he made the Celtic cross by combining the sun, another prominent feature of Celtic culture, with the cross. He used an object lesson of the shamrock (3-leaf clover) to explain the trinity to the then heavily Arian culture. It is also said he raised the dead, chased the snakes out of Ireland (though this could have been a metaphor for chasing the druids out instead).
He claimed to have had visions including the one claimed as the earliest example of God having a joke with an Irishman; he claims God told him to leave Ireland (a journey of around 200 miles) and once he left he then had another vision telling him to return.
How much is fact or fiction is historically uncertain and disputed but it all makes good legend.
I did find it interesting to discover that originally the colour blue was associated with Patrick but around the 1750's, probably due to the shamrock-trinity thing and Ireland's rejection of paganism and adoption of Christianity, the association switched to green. If this is the case then protestants can wear green today without worrying about saint worship or aligning themselves with drunkeness; we can wear green to remember a man who served God and brought Christianity to pagan cultures.
Monday, 16 March 2009
Stop Being a Christian and Start Being a Person
Follow the link here and download or play; it plays easily even on fairly slow connections, like ours and does not seem to need any special programs to play.
Glenn, despite his PhD in Philosophy, is very easy to listen to and you can play the podcast even as you are surfing the web as the file happily plays in the background. He is clever, funny and very relevant.
What a Night! Hear Dr Steve Kumar, Meet MandM ...
What: Dr Steve Kumar speaking on Faith and ReasonHosted by Thinking Matters Auckland (TMA).
When: Tuesday 17th March – 7:00pm
Where: Lecture Room 2, Laidlaw College, 80 Central Park Drive, Henderson, West Auckland
Format: Talk followed by questions, answers and discussion
Cost: Free!
We will both be there ... so see you there :-)
Videos of all live TMA events will be available on TMA's website for those for whom reaching Auckland involved crossing an ocean/strait/hemisphere.